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How much mains leakage does an Ethernet connection to a PC induce, and what is the operating leakage path?


Does an ATX power supply have any isolated outputs?What does the Arduino ethernet shield connect to?Ethernet phy connection: grounding between chassis, connector and IONon-isolated mains circuit and EthernetAdding a resistive path between live conductors and earth - safety issuesDoes the 802.3 Ethernet standard provide a recommended circuit design?Isolation transformer and AC potential between groundsHow to stop leakage of mains adaptorWhat is GMAC/EMAC and does it define a physical connection to an ethernet chip?How does Ethernet magnetics work?What are the NAND Trees that Ethernet datasheets refer to?













4












$begingroup$


It seems that some users on another Stack have reported GFCI nuisance trips caused by mains leakage through twisted-pair Ethernet cables connected between computers on different branch circuits, or more specifically, between a computer with a Class I, chassis-mounted, supply conforming to IEC 60950 connected to a grounded receptacle with UL 943 Class A GFCI protection, and a switch that is a Class III appliance with a Class II power supply, connected to a grounded, but unprotected, receptacle on a different branch circuit.



While, conceptually speaking, the idea that there could be a leakage path through the data cable makes some sense, and I have seen Ethernet reference circuits that have termination RC networks from the port-side center-tap terminals in the magnetics to chassis ground as well as a 1nF capacitor between chassis and signal grounds, it seems to me that it would be very poor engineering for this leakage path to allow the mains leakage current to rise to a magnitude exceeding the IEC 60950 standards.



What is the magnitude of this Ethernet-connection-induced leakage current rise, what factors in the design of the equipment involved control this rise, and can someone describe to me the precise leakage loop involved?










share|improve this question









$endgroup$







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    I think the user on DIY is full of it. if the power supply in the PC is isolated, there shouldn't be any leakage that will trip a GFCI. Maybe he routes his ethernet cables by coiling them around the power cables?
    $endgroup$
    – The Photon
    3 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @ThePhoton -- unfortunately, I'm not in a situation to test it (don't have the network setup or the sensitive leakage clampmeter needed for that) or else I would put this theory to the test! If anyone wishes to experiment with this, though, I'd love to hear about it!
    $endgroup$
    – ThreePhaseEel
    3 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    I've got a router, computer and laser printer networked together on a GFCI receptacle. Networked back to FIOS box and to another computer both not on this GFCI, and the GFCI hasn't tripped ever (~ 13 years). On the other hand, all the GFCI stuff is also going through a UPS (laser is on the surge-protection-only part) so that may mask any potential problem, though until ~ 6 years ago it wasn't on a UPS. But (as noted in DIY), I've never seen this problem anywhere and I have quite a few customers - I would think I'd come across the problem occasionally if was at all common.
    $endgroup$
    – manassehkatz
    2 hours ago







  • 2




    $begingroup$
    One caveat to my above comment: It's entirely possible (in fact, it's certain) there are some shitty power supplies out there being used in PCs.
    $endgroup$
    – The Photon
    2 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Related: Does an ATX power supply have any isolated outputs?.
    $endgroup$
    – The Photon
    2 hours ago















4












$begingroup$


It seems that some users on another Stack have reported GFCI nuisance trips caused by mains leakage through twisted-pair Ethernet cables connected between computers on different branch circuits, or more specifically, between a computer with a Class I, chassis-mounted, supply conforming to IEC 60950 connected to a grounded receptacle with UL 943 Class A GFCI protection, and a switch that is a Class III appliance with a Class II power supply, connected to a grounded, but unprotected, receptacle on a different branch circuit.



While, conceptually speaking, the idea that there could be a leakage path through the data cable makes some sense, and I have seen Ethernet reference circuits that have termination RC networks from the port-side center-tap terminals in the magnetics to chassis ground as well as a 1nF capacitor between chassis and signal grounds, it seems to me that it would be very poor engineering for this leakage path to allow the mains leakage current to rise to a magnitude exceeding the IEC 60950 standards.



What is the magnitude of this Ethernet-connection-induced leakage current rise, what factors in the design of the equipment involved control this rise, and can someone describe to me the precise leakage loop involved?










share|improve this question









$endgroup$







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    I think the user on DIY is full of it. if the power supply in the PC is isolated, there shouldn't be any leakage that will trip a GFCI. Maybe he routes his ethernet cables by coiling them around the power cables?
    $endgroup$
    – The Photon
    3 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @ThePhoton -- unfortunately, I'm not in a situation to test it (don't have the network setup or the sensitive leakage clampmeter needed for that) or else I would put this theory to the test! If anyone wishes to experiment with this, though, I'd love to hear about it!
    $endgroup$
    – ThreePhaseEel
    3 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    I've got a router, computer and laser printer networked together on a GFCI receptacle. Networked back to FIOS box and to another computer both not on this GFCI, and the GFCI hasn't tripped ever (~ 13 years). On the other hand, all the GFCI stuff is also going through a UPS (laser is on the surge-protection-only part) so that may mask any potential problem, though until ~ 6 years ago it wasn't on a UPS. But (as noted in DIY), I've never seen this problem anywhere and I have quite a few customers - I would think I'd come across the problem occasionally if was at all common.
    $endgroup$
    – manassehkatz
    2 hours ago







  • 2




    $begingroup$
    One caveat to my above comment: It's entirely possible (in fact, it's certain) there are some shitty power supplies out there being used in PCs.
    $endgroup$
    – The Photon
    2 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Related: Does an ATX power supply have any isolated outputs?.
    $endgroup$
    – The Photon
    2 hours ago













4












4








4





$begingroup$


It seems that some users on another Stack have reported GFCI nuisance trips caused by mains leakage through twisted-pair Ethernet cables connected between computers on different branch circuits, or more specifically, between a computer with a Class I, chassis-mounted, supply conforming to IEC 60950 connected to a grounded receptacle with UL 943 Class A GFCI protection, and a switch that is a Class III appliance with a Class II power supply, connected to a grounded, but unprotected, receptacle on a different branch circuit.



While, conceptually speaking, the idea that there could be a leakage path through the data cable makes some sense, and I have seen Ethernet reference circuits that have termination RC networks from the port-side center-tap terminals in the magnetics to chassis ground as well as a 1nF capacitor between chassis and signal grounds, it seems to me that it would be very poor engineering for this leakage path to allow the mains leakage current to rise to a magnitude exceeding the IEC 60950 standards.



What is the magnitude of this Ethernet-connection-induced leakage current rise, what factors in the design of the equipment involved control this rise, and can someone describe to me the precise leakage loop involved?










share|improve this question









$endgroup$




It seems that some users on another Stack have reported GFCI nuisance trips caused by mains leakage through twisted-pair Ethernet cables connected between computers on different branch circuits, or more specifically, between a computer with a Class I, chassis-mounted, supply conforming to IEC 60950 connected to a grounded receptacle with UL 943 Class A GFCI protection, and a switch that is a Class III appliance with a Class II power supply, connected to a grounded, but unprotected, receptacle on a different branch circuit.



While, conceptually speaking, the idea that there could be a leakage path through the data cable makes some sense, and I have seen Ethernet reference circuits that have termination RC networks from the port-side center-tap terminals in the magnetics to chassis ground as well as a 1nF capacitor between chassis and signal grounds, it seems to me that it would be very poor engineering for this leakage path to allow the mains leakage current to rise to a magnitude exceeding the IEC 60950 standards.



What is the magnitude of this Ethernet-connection-induced leakage current rise, what factors in the design of the equipment involved control this rise, and can someone describe to me the precise leakage loop involved?







ethernet leakage-current






share|improve this question













share|improve this question











share|improve this question




share|improve this question










asked 3 hours ago









ThreePhaseEelThreePhaseEel

6,69641534




6,69641534







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    I think the user on DIY is full of it. if the power supply in the PC is isolated, there shouldn't be any leakage that will trip a GFCI. Maybe he routes his ethernet cables by coiling them around the power cables?
    $endgroup$
    – The Photon
    3 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @ThePhoton -- unfortunately, I'm not in a situation to test it (don't have the network setup or the sensitive leakage clampmeter needed for that) or else I would put this theory to the test! If anyone wishes to experiment with this, though, I'd love to hear about it!
    $endgroup$
    – ThreePhaseEel
    3 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    I've got a router, computer and laser printer networked together on a GFCI receptacle. Networked back to FIOS box and to another computer both not on this GFCI, and the GFCI hasn't tripped ever (~ 13 years). On the other hand, all the GFCI stuff is also going through a UPS (laser is on the surge-protection-only part) so that may mask any potential problem, though until ~ 6 years ago it wasn't on a UPS. But (as noted in DIY), I've never seen this problem anywhere and I have quite a few customers - I would think I'd come across the problem occasionally if was at all common.
    $endgroup$
    – manassehkatz
    2 hours ago







  • 2




    $begingroup$
    One caveat to my above comment: It's entirely possible (in fact, it's certain) there are some shitty power supplies out there being used in PCs.
    $endgroup$
    – The Photon
    2 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Related: Does an ATX power supply have any isolated outputs?.
    $endgroup$
    – The Photon
    2 hours ago












  • 1




    $begingroup$
    I think the user on DIY is full of it. if the power supply in the PC is isolated, there shouldn't be any leakage that will trip a GFCI. Maybe he routes his ethernet cables by coiling them around the power cables?
    $endgroup$
    – The Photon
    3 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @ThePhoton -- unfortunately, I'm not in a situation to test it (don't have the network setup or the sensitive leakage clampmeter needed for that) or else I would put this theory to the test! If anyone wishes to experiment with this, though, I'd love to hear about it!
    $endgroup$
    – ThreePhaseEel
    3 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    I've got a router, computer and laser printer networked together on a GFCI receptacle. Networked back to FIOS box and to another computer both not on this GFCI, and the GFCI hasn't tripped ever (~ 13 years). On the other hand, all the GFCI stuff is also going through a UPS (laser is on the surge-protection-only part) so that may mask any potential problem, though until ~ 6 years ago it wasn't on a UPS. But (as noted in DIY), I've never seen this problem anywhere and I have quite a few customers - I would think I'd come across the problem occasionally if was at all common.
    $endgroup$
    – manassehkatz
    2 hours ago







  • 2




    $begingroup$
    One caveat to my above comment: It's entirely possible (in fact, it's certain) there are some shitty power supplies out there being used in PCs.
    $endgroup$
    – The Photon
    2 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Related: Does an ATX power supply have any isolated outputs?.
    $endgroup$
    – The Photon
    2 hours ago







1




1




$begingroup$
I think the user on DIY is full of it. if the power supply in the PC is isolated, there shouldn't be any leakage that will trip a GFCI. Maybe he routes his ethernet cables by coiling them around the power cables?
$endgroup$
– The Photon
3 hours ago




$begingroup$
I think the user on DIY is full of it. if the power supply in the PC is isolated, there shouldn't be any leakage that will trip a GFCI. Maybe he routes his ethernet cables by coiling them around the power cables?
$endgroup$
– The Photon
3 hours ago




1




1




$begingroup$
@ThePhoton -- unfortunately, I'm not in a situation to test it (don't have the network setup or the sensitive leakage clampmeter needed for that) or else I would put this theory to the test! If anyone wishes to experiment with this, though, I'd love to hear about it!
$endgroup$
– ThreePhaseEel
3 hours ago





$begingroup$
@ThePhoton -- unfortunately, I'm not in a situation to test it (don't have the network setup or the sensitive leakage clampmeter needed for that) or else I would put this theory to the test! If anyone wishes to experiment with this, though, I'd love to hear about it!
$endgroup$
– ThreePhaseEel
3 hours ago













$begingroup$
I've got a router, computer and laser printer networked together on a GFCI receptacle. Networked back to FIOS box and to another computer both not on this GFCI, and the GFCI hasn't tripped ever (~ 13 years). On the other hand, all the GFCI stuff is also going through a UPS (laser is on the surge-protection-only part) so that may mask any potential problem, though until ~ 6 years ago it wasn't on a UPS. But (as noted in DIY), I've never seen this problem anywhere and I have quite a few customers - I would think I'd come across the problem occasionally if was at all common.
$endgroup$
– manassehkatz
2 hours ago





$begingroup$
I've got a router, computer and laser printer networked together on a GFCI receptacle. Networked back to FIOS box and to another computer both not on this GFCI, and the GFCI hasn't tripped ever (~ 13 years). On the other hand, all the GFCI stuff is also going through a UPS (laser is on the surge-protection-only part) so that may mask any potential problem, though until ~ 6 years ago it wasn't on a UPS. But (as noted in DIY), I've never seen this problem anywhere and I have quite a few customers - I would think I'd come across the problem occasionally if was at all common.
$endgroup$
– manassehkatz
2 hours ago





2




2




$begingroup$
One caveat to my above comment: It's entirely possible (in fact, it's certain) there are some shitty power supplies out there being used in PCs.
$endgroup$
– The Photon
2 hours ago




$begingroup$
One caveat to my above comment: It's entirely possible (in fact, it's certain) there are some shitty power supplies out there being used in PCs.
$endgroup$
– The Photon
2 hours ago












$begingroup$
Related: Does an ATX power supply have any isolated outputs?.
$endgroup$
– The Photon
2 hours ago




$begingroup$
Related: Does an ATX power supply have any isolated outputs?.
$endgroup$
– The Photon
2 hours ago










3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes


















1












$begingroup$

The ethernet connection leakage current should be negligable, with UTP.
Every port has a array of transformers for high frequency, the leakage at 50 Hz common mode will be very low.
enter image description here



However, if shielded cable is used, S-UTP or CAT7 cables, there will also be made a chassis connection between the two devices.

Then the power supply leakage enters the equation, and those may leak several milliamperes.



*(image source)






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    Yep, shielded cable was my concern too.
    $endgroup$
    – Ale..chenski
    12 mins ago


















0












$begingroup$



So I'm the user on DIY.



I had some original experience at work where we coudn't get the new portable generator to power more than one computer even though the old one did. We eventually bisected it to the GFCI outlet in the new generator.



Later on, I had to track down why my AFCI breaker kept tripping. The electrician I called tested the AFCI breaker by bridging a resistor between power and ground. That tripped it. He said that AFCI breakers work by detecting ground faults. I originally said he was nuts, but it turns out it was true.



I got a copy of a circuit for RJ45 magnetics. The critical point is RXN and TXN are tied together by a pair of identical resistors R6 and R7 and capacitor C15 which is 10nF ties that bridge line to ground. In steady state, C15 would indeed conduct no current; however when sending a packet, the impedance of C15 1 / jωC = 1 / j(2·10⁹)(10·10⁻⁹) = 1/j20. This gives the resulting current flow of I = V/R = 3.3/2/49.9² + 1/20²)¹ᐟ² = .033 amps.



And that's just that one capacitor. I haven't been able to locate the indicator LEDs yet. I've noticed that the connection indicator LED on quite a few computers will light even when the board is unpowered but not when unplugged. Conclusion: that LED is tied between the Ethernet cable on one side and the ground on the other, and that ground is often the neutral wire rather than the house ground (two wire devices ...).



Now the electrician was in fact telling the truth. Old series AFCI breakers would trip at something like .1 amps of ground loop by specification. The gigabit switch I was using at the time was a two wire device (no dedicated ground) so all of that current had to go into the neutral wire. New AFCI breakers have since been fixed to work by other means than ground fault detection and replacing the AFCI breaker was the solution.



GFCI outlets are documented to trip at .004 amps. Guess what happens when you run Ethernet cables between devices on different circuits where one of them doesn't have a ground wire. And I'm pretty sure from the bisection that most of these cheaper power supplies were tying the motherboard ground to the neutral wire not the ground wire despite the ground wire being available.






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    So HIGH SLEW RATE Ethernet signals are, lacking OTHER return paths, using the PowerLine as RETURN?
    $endgroup$
    – analogsystemsrf
    2 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @analogsystemsrf: Yup! Was expecting it as soon as I learned how carrier sense worked. Come to think of it, that's probably why that line is tied to neutral rather than ground in the PCs. If it were tied to ground it would have a hard time returning to a two-wire device.
    $endgroup$
    – Joshua
    2 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    When you say "that ground is often the neutral wire", if that's true then your PC vendor hasn't provided a properly isolated power supply and is violating safety regulations in any first-world country.
    $endgroup$
    – The Photon
    2 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    The ground on this schematic would be the negative power rail for the entire circuit. Every part of the computer will send current to the same ground that's on this schematic. In electronics, ground usually just means zero volts, not "real ground".
    $endgroup$
    – immibis
    2 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    (Even if it was real ground, you didn't account for the fact that RXN and RXP should change with opposite polarity to each other, so the voltage on the capacitor shouldn't change)
    $endgroup$
    – immibis
    2 hours ago


















0












$begingroup$

Tripping a GFCI usually occurs when there is a missmatch between the current going in and the current going out. While there could exist mutual inductance between cables, I don't think it would generate enough current because properly designed Ethernet ports have mega ohms of impedance at DC. I'll find some impedance graphs for the Chokes tomorrow, but if I remember right there is high attention for lower frequencies through chokes, and highly unlikely to pass much current 60Hz through DC.



If the cable was improperly built there could be a pathway there






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$













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    3 Answers
    3






    active

    oldest

    votes








    3 Answers
    3






    active

    oldest

    votes









    active

    oldest

    votes






    active

    oldest

    votes









    1












    $begingroup$

    The ethernet connection leakage current should be negligable, with UTP.
    Every port has a array of transformers for high frequency, the leakage at 50 Hz common mode will be very low.
    enter image description here



    However, if shielded cable is used, S-UTP or CAT7 cables, there will also be made a chassis connection between the two devices.

    Then the power supply leakage enters the equation, and those may leak several milliamperes.



    *(image source)






    share|improve this answer









    $endgroup$












    • $begingroup$
      Yep, shielded cable was my concern too.
      $endgroup$
      – Ale..chenski
      12 mins ago















    1












    $begingroup$

    The ethernet connection leakage current should be negligable, with UTP.
    Every port has a array of transformers for high frequency, the leakage at 50 Hz common mode will be very low.
    enter image description here



    However, if shielded cable is used, S-UTP or CAT7 cables, there will also be made a chassis connection between the two devices.

    Then the power supply leakage enters the equation, and those may leak several milliamperes.



    *(image source)






    share|improve this answer









    $endgroup$












    • $begingroup$
      Yep, shielded cable was my concern too.
      $endgroup$
      – Ale..chenski
      12 mins ago













    1












    1








    1





    $begingroup$

    The ethernet connection leakage current should be negligable, with UTP.
    Every port has a array of transformers for high frequency, the leakage at 50 Hz common mode will be very low.
    enter image description here



    However, if shielded cable is used, S-UTP or CAT7 cables, there will also be made a chassis connection between the two devices.

    Then the power supply leakage enters the equation, and those may leak several milliamperes.



    *(image source)






    share|improve this answer









    $endgroup$



    The ethernet connection leakage current should be negligable, with UTP.
    Every port has a array of transformers for high frequency, the leakage at 50 Hz common mode will be very low.
    enter image description here



    However, if shielded cable is used, S-UTP or CAT7 cables, there will also be made a chassis connection between the two devices.

    Then the power supply leakage enters the equation, and those may leak several milliamperes.



    *(image source)







    share|improve this answer












    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer










    answered 16 mins ago









    Jeroen3Jeroen3

    11.6k1748




    11.6k1748











    • $begingroup$
      Yep, shielded cable was my concern too.
      $endgroup$
      – Ale..chenski
      12 mins ago
















    • $begingroup$
      Yep, shielded cable was my concern too.
      $endgroup$
      – Ale..chenski
      12 mins ago















    $begingroup$
    Yep, shielded cable was my concern too.
    $endgroup$
    – Ale..chenski
    12 mins ago




    $begingroup$
    Yep, shielded cable was my concern too.
    $endgroup$
    – Ale..chenski
    12 mins ago













    0












    $begingroup$



    So I'm the user on DIY.



    I had some original experience at work where we coudn't get the new portable generator to power more than one computer even though the old one did. We eventually bisected it to the GFCI outlet in the new generator.



    Later on, I had to track down why my AFCI breaker kept tripping. The electrician I called tested the AFCI breaker by bridging a resistor between power and ground. That tripped it. He said that AFCI breakers work by detecting ground faults. I originally said he was nuts, but it turns out it was true.



    I got a copy of a circuit for RJ45 magnetics. The critical point is RXN and TXN are tied together by a pair of identical resistors R6 and R7 and capacitor C15 which is 10nF ties that bridge line to ground. In steady state, C15 would indeed conduct no current; however when sending a packet, the impedance of C15 1 / jωC = 1 / j(2·10⁹)(10·10⁻⁹) = 1/j20. This gives the resulting current flow of I = V/R = 3.3/2/49.9² + 1/20²)¹ᐟ² = .033 amps.



    And that's just that one capacitor. I haven't been able to locate the indicator LEDs yet. I've noticed that the connection indicator LED on quite a few computers will light even when the board is unpowered but not when unplugged. Conclusion: that LED is tied between the Ethernet cable on one side and the ground on the other, and that ground is often the neutral wire rather than the house ground (two wire devices ...).



    Now the electrician was in fact telling the truth. Old series AFCI breakers would trip at something like .1 amps of ground loop by specification. The gigabit switch I was using at the time was a two wire device (no dedicated ground) so all of that current had to go into the neutral wire. New AFCI breakers have since been fixed to work by other means than ground fault detection and replacing the AFCI breaker was the solution.



    GFCI outlets are documented to trip at .004 amps. Guess what happens when you run Ethernet cables between devices on different circuits where one of them doesn't have a ground wire. And I'm pretty sure from the bisection that most of these cheaper power supplies were tying the motherboard ground to the neutral wire not the ground wire despite the ground wire being available.






    share|improve this answer











    $endgroup$












    • $begingroup$
      So HIGH SLEW RATE Ethernet signals are, lacking OTHER return paths, using the PowerLine as RETURN?
      $endgroup$
      – analogsystemsrf
      2 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      @analogsystemsrf: Yup! Was expecting it as soon as I learned how carrier sense worked. Come to think of it, that's probably why that line is tied to neutral rather than ground in the PCs. If it were tied to ground it would have a hard time returning to a two-wire device.
      $endgroup$
      – Joshua
      2 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      When you say "that ground is often the neutral wire", if that's true then your PC vendor hasn't provided a properly isolated power supply and is violating safety regulations in any first-world country.
      $endgroup$
      – The Photon
      2 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      The ground on this schematic would be the negative power rail for the entire circuit. Every part of the computer will send current to the same ground that's on this schematic. In electronics, ground usually just means zero volts, not "real ground".
      $endgroup$
      – immibis
      2 hours ago











    • $begingroup$
      (Even if it was real ground, you didn't account for the fact that RXN and RXP should change with opposite polarity to each other, so the voltage on the capacitor shouldn't change)
      $endgroup$
      – immibis
      2 hours ago















    0












    $begingroup$



    So I'm the user on DIY.



    I had some original experience at work where we coudn't get the new portable generator to power more than one computer even though the old one did. We eventually bisected it to the GFCI outlet in the new generator.



    Later on, I had to track down why my AFCI breaker kept tripping. The electrician I called tested the AFCI breaker by bridging a resistor between power and ground. That tripped it. He said that AFCI breakers work by detecting ground faults. I originally said he was nuts, but it turns out it was true.



    I got a copy of a circuit for RJ45 magnetics. The critical point is RXN and TXN are tied together by a pair of identical resistors R6 and R7 and capacitor C15 which is 10nF ties that bridge line to ground. In steady state, C15 would indeed conduct no current; however when sending a packet, the impedance of C15 1 / jωC = 1 / j(2·10⁹)(10·10⁻⁹) = 1/j20. This gives the resulting current flow of I = V/R = 3.3/2/49.9² + 1/20²)¹ᐟ² = .033 amps.



    And that's just that one capacitor. I haven't been able to locate the indicator LEDs yet. I've noticed that the connection indicator LED on quite a few computers will light even when the board is unpowered but not when unplugged. Conclusion: that LED is tied between the Ethernet cable on one side and the ground on the other, and that ground is often the neutral wire rather than the house ground (two wire devices ...).



    Now the electrician was in fact telling the truth. Old series AFCI breakers would trip at something like .1 amps of ground loop by specification. The gigabit switch I was using at the time was a two wire device (no dedicated ground) so all of that current had to go into the neutral wire. New AFCI breakers have since been fixed to work by other means than ground fault detection and replacing the AFCI breaker was the solution.



    GFCI outlets are documented to trip at .004 amps. Guess what happens when you run Ethernet cables between devices on different circuits where one of them doesn't have a ground wire. And I'm pretty sure from the bisection that most of these cheaper power supplies were tying the motherboard ground to the neutral wire not the ground wire despite the ground wire being available.






    share|improve this answer











    $endgroup$












    • $begingroup$
      So HIGH SLEW RATE Ethernet signals are, lacking OTHER return paths, using the PowerLine as RETURN?
      $endgroup$
      – analogsystemsrf
      2 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      @analogsystemsrf: Yup! Was expecting it as soon as I learned how carrier sense worked. Come to think of it, that's probably why that line is tied to neutral rather than ground in the PCs. If it were tied to ground it would have a hard time returning to a two-wire device.
      $endgroup$
      – Joshua
      2 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      When you say "that ground is often the neutral wire", if that's true then your PC vendor hasn't provided a properly isolated power supply and is violating safety regulations in any first-world country.
      $endgroup$
      – The Photon
      2 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      The ground on this schematic would be the negative power rail for the entire circuit. Every part of the computer will send current to the same ground that's on this schematic. In electronics, ground usually just means zero volts, not "real ground".
      $endgroup$
      – immibis
      2 hours ago











    • $begingroup$
      (Even if it was real ground, you didn't account for the fact that RXN and RXP should change with opposite polarity to each other, so the voltage on the capacitor shouldn't change)
      $endgroup$
      – immibis
      2 hours ago













    0












    0








    0





    $begingroup$



    So I'm the user on DIY.



    I had some original experience at work where we coudn't get the new portable generator to power more than one computer even though the old one did. We eventually bisected it to the GFCI outlet in the new generator.



    Later on, I had to track down why my AFCI breaker kept tripping. The electrician I called tested the AFCI breaker by bridging a resistor between power and ground. That tripped it. He said that AFCI breakers work by detecting ground faults. I originally said he was nuts, but it turns out it was true.



    I got a copy of a circuit for RJ45 magnetics. The critical point is RXN and TXN are tied together by a pair of identical resistors R6 and R7 and capacitor C15 which is 10nF ties that bridge line to ground. In steady state, C15 would indeed conduct no current; however when sending a packet, the impedance of C15 1 / jωC = 1 / j(2·10⁹)(10·10⁻⁹) = 1/j20. This gives the resulting current flow of I = V/R = 3.3/2/49.9² + 1/20²)¹ᐟ² = .033 amps.



    And that's just that one capacitor. I haven't been able to locate the indicator LEDs yet. I've noticed that the connection indicator LED on quite a few computers will light even when the board is unpowered but not when unplugged. Conclusion: that LED is tied between the Ethernet cable on one side and the ground on the other, and that ground is often the neutral wire rather than the house ground (two wire devices ...).



    Now the electrician was in fact telling the truth. Old series AFCI breakers would trip at something like .1 amps of ground loop by specification. The gigabit switch I was using at the time was a two wire device (no dedicated ground) so all of that current had to go into the neutral wire. New AFCI breakers have since been fixed to work by other means than ground fault detection and replacing the AFCI breaker was the solution.



    GFCI outlets are documented to trip at .004 amps. Guess what happens when you run Ethernet cables between devices on different circuits where one of them doesn't have a ground wire. And I'm pretty sure from the bisection that most of these cheaper power supplies were tying the motherboard ground to the neutral wire not the ground wire despite the ground wire being available.






    share|improve this answer











    $endgroup$





    So I'm the user on DIY.



    I had some original experience at work where we coudn't get the new portable generator to power more than one computer even though the old one did. We eventually bisected it to the GFCI outlet in the new generator.



    Later on, I had to track down why my AFCI breaker kept tripping. The electrician I called tested the AFCI breaker by bridging a resistor between power and ground. That tripped it. He said that AFCI breakers work by detecting ground faults. I originally said he was nuts, but it turns out it was true.



    I got a copy of a circuit for RJ45 magnetics. The critical point is RXN and TXN are tied together by a pair of identical resistors R6 and R7 and capacitor C15 which is 10nF ties that bridge line to ground. In steady state, C15 would indeed conduct no current; however when sending a packet, the impedance of C15 1 / jωC = 1 / j(2·10⁹)(10·10⁻⁹) = 1/j20. This gives the resulting current flow of I = V/R = 3.3/2/49.9² + 1/20²)¹ᐟ² = .033 amps.



    And that's just that one capacitor. I haven't been able to locate the indicator LEDs yet. I've noticed that the connection indicator LED on quite a few computers will light even when the board is unpowered but not when unplugged. Conclusion: that LED is tied between the Ethernet cable on one side and the ground on the other, and that ground is often the neutral wire rather than the house ground (two wire devices ...).



    Now the electrician was in fact telling the truth. Old series AFCI breakers would trip at something like .1 amps of ground loop by specification. The gigabit switch I was using at the time was a two wire device (no dedicated ground) so all of that current had to go into the neutral wire. New AFCI breakers have since been fixed to work by other means than ground fault detection and replacing the AFCI breaker was the solution.



    GFCI outlets are documented to trip at .004 amps. Guess what happens when you run Ethernet cables between devices on different circuits where one of them doesn't have a ground wire. And I'm pretty sure from the bisection that most of these cheaper power supplies were tying the motherboard ground to the neutral wire not the ground wire despite the ground wire being available.







    share|improve this answer














    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer








    edited 2 hours ago

























    answered 2 hours ago









    JoshuaJoshua

    21515




    21515











    • $begingroup$
      So HIGH SLEW RATE Ethernet signals are, lacking OTHER return paths, using the PowerLine as RETURN?
      $endgroup$
      – analogsystemsrf
      2 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      @analogsystemsrf: Yup! Was expecting it as soon as I learned how carrier sense worked. Come to think of it, that's probably why that line is tied to neutral rather than ground in the PCs. If it were tied to ground it would have a hard time returning to a two-wire device.
      $endgroup$
      – Joshua
      2 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      When you say "that ground is often the neutral wire", if that's true then your PC vendor hasn't provided a properly isolated power supply and is violating safety regulations in any first-world country.
      $endgroup$
      – The Photon
      2 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      The ground on this schematic would be the negative power rail for the entire circuit. Every part of the computer will send current to the same ground that's on this schematic. In electronics, ground usually just means zero volts, not "real ground".
      $endgroup$
      – immibis
      2 hours ago











    • $begingroup$
      (Even if it was real ground, you didn't account for the fact that RXN and RXP should change with opposite polarity to each other, so the voltage on the capacitor shouldn't change)
      $endgroup$
      – immibis
      2 hours ago
















    • $begingroup$
      So HIGH SLEW RATE Ethernet signals are, lacking OTHER return paths, using the PowerLine as RETURN?
      $endgroup$
      – analogsystemsrf
      2 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      @analogsystemsrf: Yup! Was expecting it as soon as I learned how carrier sense worked. Come to think of it, that's probably why that line is tied to neutral rather than ground in the PCs. If it were tied to ground it would have a hard time returning to a two-wire device.
      $endgroup$
      – Joshua
      2 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      When you say "that ground is often the neutral wire", if that's true then your PC vendor hasn't provided a properly isolated power supply and is violating safety regulations in any first-world country.
      $endgroup$
      – The Photon
      2 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      The ground on this schematic would be the negative power rail for the entire circuit. Every part of the computer will send current to the same ground that's on this schematic. In electronics, ground usually just means zero volts, not "real ground".
      $endgroup$
      – immibis
      2 hours ago











    • $begingroup$
      (Even if it was real ground, you didn't account for the fact that RXN and RXP should change with opposite polarity to each other, so the voltage on the capacitor shouldn't change)
      $endgroup$
      – immibis
      2 hours ago















    $begingroup$
    So HIGH SLEW RATE Ethernet signals are, lacking OTHER return paths, using the PowerLine as RETURN?
    $endgroup$
    – analogsystemsrf
    2 hours ago




    $begingroup$
    So HIGH SLEW RATE Ethernet signals are, lacking OTHER return paths, using the PowerLine as RETURN?
    $endgroup$
    – analogsystemsrf
    2 hours ago












    $begingroup$
    @analogsystemsrf: Yup! Was expecting it as soon as I learned how carrier sense worked. Come to think of it, that's probably why that line is tied to neutral rather than ground in the PCs. If it were tied to ground it would have a hard time returning to a two-wire device.
    $endgroup$
    – Joshua
    2 hours ago




    $begingroup$
    @analogsystemsrf: Yup! Was expecting it as soon as I learned how carrier sense worked. Come to think of it, that's probably why that line is tied to neutral rather than ground in the PCs. If it were tied to ground it would have a hard time returning to a two-wire device.
    $endgroup$
    – Joshua
    2 hours ago












    $begingroup$
    When you say "that ground is often the neutral wire", if that's true then your PC vendor hasn't provided a properly isolated power supply and is violating safety regulations in any first-world country.
    $endgroup$
    – The Photon
    2 hours ago




    $begingroup$
    When you say "that ground is often the neutral wire", if that's true then your PC vendor hasn't provided a properly isolated power supply and is violating safety regulations in any first-world country.
    $endgroup$
    – The Photon
    2 hours ago












    $begingroup$
    The ground on this schematic would be the negative power rail for the entire circuit. Every part of the computer will send current to the same ground that's on this schematic. In electronics, ground usually just means zero volts, not "real ground".
    $endgroup$
    – immibis
    2 hours ago





    $begingroup$
    The ground on this schematic would be the negative power rail for the entire circuit. Every part of the computer will send current to the same ground that's on this schematic. In electronics, ground usually just means zero volts, not "real ground".
    $endgroup$
    – immibis
    2 hours ago













    $begingroup$
    (Even if it was real ground, you didn't account for the fact that RXN and RXP should change with opposite polarity to each other, so the voltage on the capacitor shouldn't change)
    $endgroup$
    – immibis
    2 hours ago




    $begingroup$
    (Even if it was real ground, you didn't account for the fact that RXN and RXP should change with opposite polarity to each other, so the voltage on the capacitor shouldn't change)
    $endgroup$
    – immibis
    2 hours ago











    0












    $begingroup$

    Tripping a GFCI usually occurs when there is a missmatch between the current going in and the current going out. While there could exist mutual inductance between cables, I don't think it would generate enough current because properly designed Ethernet ports have mega ohms of impedance at DC. I'll find some impedance graphs for the Chokes tomorrow, but if I remember right there is high attention for lower frequencies through chokes, and highly unlikely to pass much current 60Hz through DC.



    If the cable was improperly built there could be a pathway there






    share|improve this answer









    $endgroup$

















      0












      $begingroup$

      Tripping a GFCI usually occurs when there is a missmatch between the current going in and the current going out. While there could exist mutual inductance between cables, I don't think it would generate enough current because properly designed Ethernet ports have mega ohms of impedance at DC. I'll find some impedance graphs for the Chokes tomorrow, but if I remember right there is high attention for lower frequencies through chokes, and highly unlikely to pass much current 60Hz through DC.



      If the cable was improperly built there could be a pathway there






      share|improve this answer









      $endgroup$















        0












        0








        0





        $begingroup$

        Tripping a GFCI usually occurs when there is a missmatch between the current going in and the current going out. While there could exist mutual inductance between cables, I don't think it would generate enough current because properly designed Ethernet ports have mega ohms of impedance at DC. I'll find some impedance graphs for the Chokes tomorrow, but if I remember right there is high attention for lower frequencies through chokes, and highly unlikely to pass much current 60Hz through DC.



        If the cable was improperly built there could be a pathway there






        share|improve this answer









        $endgroup$



        Tripping a GFCI usually occurs when there is a missmatch between the current going in and the current going out. While there could exist mutual inductance between cables, I don't think it would generate enough current because properly designed Ethernet ports have mega ohms of impedance at DC. I'll find some impedance graphs for the Chokes tomorrow, but if I remember right there is high attention for lower frequencies through chokes, and highly unlikely to pass much current 60Hz through DC.



        If the cable was improperly built there could be a pathway there







        share|improve this answer












        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer










        answered 21 mins ago









        laptop2dlaptop2d

        27.1k123584




        27.1k123584



























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A History of the Indian-Subcontinent from 7000 BC to AD 1200The Kashmir Series: Glimpses of Kashmiri Culture – Vivekananda Kendra, Kanyakumari (p. 57).Al-Hind: Early Medieval India and the Expansion of Islam, 7th–11th CenturiesHistory of GopāchalaLand of Two Rivers: A History of Bengal from the Mahabharata to MujibEuropean Trade and Colonial ConquestA History of IndiaA Comprehensive History Of Ancient India (3 Vol. Set)"The Last Years of Cholas: The decline and fall of a dynasty"the originalFascinating Hindutva: Saffron Politics and Dalit MobilisationGazetteer of the province of OudhAl- Hind: The slave kings and the Islamic conquest. 2"Shahi Family"The Cambridge history of Islam"Ameer Nasir-ood-deen Subooktugeen"Gazetteer of the Attock District, 1930, Part 1Land of seven rivers: History of India's GeographyTemple Desecration and Indo-Muslim StatesIslam in South Asia: A Short HistoryBeyond Orientalism: The Work of Wilhelm Halbfass and Its Impact on Indian and Cross-cultural StudiesThe Making of Terrorism in Pakistan: Historical and Social Roots of ExtremismOrnament in Indian ArchitectureA historical review of Hindu India: 300 B.C. to 1200 A.D."Indian States and Union Territories"Islam in South Asia: A Short HistoryA Brief History of the Indian PeoplesThe Modern ReviewDelhi Sultanate"Battuta's Travels: Delhi, capital of Muslim India"the original"Timur – conquest of India"the originalIndia HandbookBhaktiThe Four Denomination of Hinduism10.1007/s11407-008-9049-925691067"Vijayanagara Research Project::Elephant Stables"10.2307/26465262646526Historical Dictionary of the TamilsBihar General Knowledge DigestMapping Bihar: From Medieval to Modern TimesPopular Literature and Pre-modern Societies in South AsiaA manual of the Kistna district in the presidency of MadrasAncient Indian History and CivilizationFragmented Memories: Struggling to be Tai-Ahom in India"The Islamic World to 1600: Rise of the Great Islamic Empires (The Mughal Empire)"the originalDynasties: A Global History of Power, 1300–1800, p. 105"Whose fort is it anyway"10.1111/0020-8833.000532600793Development Centre Studies The World Economy Historical Statistics: Historical Statistics"India's Deindustrialization in the 18th and 19th Centuries"The Mughal Empire, p. 190"The Long Globalization and Textile Producers in India"The Mughal World: Life in India's Last Golden AgeAurangzeb: The Life and Legacy of India's Most Controversial KingIn the Shadow of the Taj: A Portrait of Agra"Iran in the Age of the Raj"p. 8610.2307/20539802053980Delhi, the Capital of IndiaAn Advanced History of Modern India"Journal of the Tanjore Maharaja Serfoji's Sarasvati Mahal Library"The Rediscovery of India: A New SubcontinentIslamic Renaissance In South Asia (1707–1867) : The Role Of Shah Waliallah & His SuccessorsAn Advanced History of Modern IndiaThe Great Maratha Mahadaji Scindia"Full text of "Selections from the papers of Lord Metcalfe; late governor-general of India, governor of Jamaica, and governor-general of Canada""The Discovery Of IndiaThe Sacred City of the Hindus: An Account of Benares in Ancient and Modern TimesResurrecting Banaras: Urban Space, Architecture and Religious BoundariesFaith & Philosophy of Sikhism"Missiles mainstay of Pak's N-arsenal"History Modern India By S.N. Sen"Sirajuddaula"ArchivedLongman History & Civics (Dual Government in Bengal)Madhya Pradesh National Means-Cum-Merit Scholarship Exam (Warren Hasting's system of Dual Government)A Military History of Britain: from 1775 to the PresentIndian Cultural Heritage Perspective For TourismHindu Rulers, Muslim Subjects: Islam, Rights, and the History of KashmirIndian HistoryAn Atlas and Survey of South Asian HistoryAn Historical Account of the British Trade Over the Caspian SeaIndian Merchants and Eurasian Trade, 1600–1750The Indian diaspora in Central Asia and its trade, 1550–1900From Constantinople to the home of Omar Khayyam: travels in Transcaucasia and northern Persia for historic and literary researchA journey from Bengal to England: through the northern part of India, Kashmire, Afghanistan, and Persia, and into Russia, by the Caspian-SeaA Second Journey through Persia, Armenia, and Asia Minor, to Constantinople, between the Years 1810 and 1816Reports from the consuls of the United States, 1887Portugal and its Empire, 1250–1800 (Collected Essays in Memory of Glenn J. Ames).: Portuguese Studies Review, Vol. 17, No. 1The Dutch Power in Kerala, 1729–1758http://mod.nic.inArchivedDossier Goa – A Recusa do Sacrifício InútilAn Imperial Crisis in British India: The Manipur Uprising of 1891The Truth of Babri Mosque"Kolkata (Calcutta) : History"the original"Robert Clive, Baron Clive, 'Clive of India', 1725–1774""The Transformation from a Pre-Colonial to a Colonial Order: The Case of India"10.2307/25955872595587A versatile geniusArchived10.1109/MWSYM.1997.602854"Rabindranath Tagore on Education"the original"Essay on 'Derozio and the Young Bengal Movement'"Poverty and Famines: An Essay on Entitlement and Deprivation"Plague"the originalPopulation Growth and Land Use"Reintegrating India with the World Economy""Census Of India 1931"A history of modern India, 1480–1950"'India's well-timed diversification of army helped democracy' | Business Standard News"Bal Gangadhar Tilak: Struggle for Swaraj"Participants from the Indian subcontinent in the First World War""Commonwealth War Graves Commission Annual Report 2007–2008 Online"the original1462689197110.1017/s0010417500016534178920Eurocentrism: a marxian critical realist critique"Ranjit Guha, "On Some Aspects of Historiography of Colonial India""10.2307/2168385216838510.7202/016593ar"Harvard scholar says the idea of India dates to a much earlier time than the British or the Mughals""In The Footsteps of Pilgrims""India's spiritual landscape: The heavens and the earth""India: A Sacred Geography by Diana L Eck – review"Modern India: The Origins of an Asian Democracy10.2307/21694222169422964322464"The Indian Subcontinent and 'Out of Africa 1'"254043308Encyclopedia of World ReligionsThe Evolution and History of Human Populations in South Asia: Inter-disciplinary Studies in Archaeology, Biological Anthropology, Linguistics and Genetics"The Early Paleolithic of the Indian Subcontinent: Hominin Colonization, Dispersals and Occupation History"Ancient Indian History and CivilizationAncient Indian Social History: Some Interpretationsthe originalIndia Before EuropeA Concise History of Modern India"The beginning of the historical period, c. 500–150 BCE"full textA History of Indiathe originalexcerpt and text searchexcerptexcerptAn Economic History of India: From Pre-Colonial Times to 1991excerpt and text searchexcerpt and text searchIndia as known to the ancient world10.1111/j.1468-0289.1985.tb00391.x2597191onlineThe History of India, as told by its own historians. The Muhammadan Periodonline editionHans William Brown research collection on 19th-century missionary work in India, 1882–1932, Ms. Coll. 1033, Kislak Center for Special Collections, Rare Books and Manuscripts, University of Pennsylvaniaee